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Schnitz & Giggles
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Schnitz & Giggles
[S1E10] Greetings! (part2) Handshakes, Hugs & (Im)politeness
Ever felt that awkward pause when you go in for a hug, and the other person extends a fist bump? Or struggled with the age-old dilemma of which cheek to kiss first? Discover the hilarious ups and downs of greeting customs in our latest episode! We promise you'll learn why Americans might just give a casual "hey" while Austrians may go for a more intimate cheek kiss. Plus, we'll share some stories of mismatched greetings and the generational shifts in these customs that started around the 1970s and 80s.
Get ready to unravel the labyrinth of cross-cultural pronoun etiquette! We dive into the world of formal and informal addresses in various languages, especially focusing on the German "Sie" and "du." How can a simple pronoun create misunderstandings or disciplinary actions? You'll find out! We also share an intriguing anecdote about the delicate dance of switching from formal to informal language in German-speaking cultures—perfect material for anyone who's ever stumbled through this linguistic minefield.
In a small Austrian town, a mayor received an informal email from an older politician and responded with a letter that was as formally venomous as it was scandalous. We recount this juicy drama, discussing how people often feel emboldened to be nastier from a distance, much like on social media. Finally, we tackle the nuances of formal vs. informal greetings, offering practical tips on how to greet friends and strangers alike with kindness and respect. Tune in for a rollercoaster of Schnitz & Giggles, and insights into the world of greetings and cultural etiquette!
Welcome to the next episode of Schnitzel and Giggles. Guten hallo, guten hallo. I'm Michael, I'm Lukas, coming at you from Vienna. I wanted to talk to you about more stuff about living life in Vienna.
Speaker 2:Right, and since we had so much material last time, here comes the greetings episode part two. Great, let's jump right in. Coming back to some greetings here in Austria, have you noticed any difference in how Americans greet greet each other, or austrians or europeans greet each other? Yes, thank you next question good moving on wow, good combo.
Speaker 1:Uh, well, certainly I think americans are more likely to greet strangers just kind of in a passive way, right, just like a hey, a hey, what's up? Raised eyebrows, one raised finger as you're driving On the steering wheel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have your hand on the steering wheel and you just kind of raise one finger, and then the person in the car coming your way also raises their finger. But if they raise two fingers, is that too friendly? It depends on the finger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you raise two fingers, you're trying to be extra friendly, I suppose. Okay, well, I mean, what are you? I feel like you're. You're baiting me into something. So what are you trying to get?
Speaker 2:I'm not, I'm not trying to set any traps here. It's really more if you felt like, uh, you were gonna say hello to someone here in austria and you're going for a hug and the other person just is going for handshake, and that is sort of those awkward moments yeah, greetings can can present the most awkward of awkward moments.
Speaker 1:For sure. You go in for a handshake and somebody else is going fist bump.
Speaker 2:Or vice versa.
Speaker 1:I mean I always like to go for a handshake when somebody fist bumps, Shake their fist.
Speaker 2:It's bad if you go for a hug and they go for a fist bump. Then you have the fist in your stomach. Or what happens to me as well, multiple times, and maybe it has happened to you as well, if you kind of notice. Okay, they're leaning in for a hug, Sure, but then they're really going for the kissy-kissy thing, ah yeah. Or you go for the kissy-kissy thing and they were just it's just a hug, it's just a hug, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or just a side hug. Yeah, because in Austria, but probably throughout Europe, the cheek kiss is a greeting for people who are familiar with one another. Right, not too familiar, but just you know we're friends.
Speaker 2:It certainly expresses a sense of closeness, of trust.
Speaker 1:Is the kiss, the kissy kissy here in Austria, like something that's been around for a really long time? No, like it's something that goes back to the emperor's days that he mandated that everybody greet each other with a kiss.
Speaker 2:No, that's not the emperor's demands or anything. Okay, this is a fairly recent thing, and I think it was maybe the 1970s or 80s where this became more and more. Let's say standard. Maybe it's not the right word, but maybe it's more standard. Greeting by now, but before.
Speaker 1:That's not recent huh.
Speaker 2:So the generation, the one or two generations before us, darn boomers, yeah, the boomers, kissing each other all over the place, thinking of the older generation. In my life it was always a firm handshake, maybe Sure, or perhaps just a hug.
Speaker 1:Well, I've found that the hugs amongst Austrians are usually not Like you're more likely to get the kissy-kissy as opposed to like a hug. Yeah, that might be true. I think us Americans we're all about hugging. We'll greet each other with a hug and let's kissy kissy, let's kissy kissy, let's kissy kissy. But I have found that sometimes greeting with a hug unless that's kind of a normal part of your relationship, I guess, like the guys on the team, we'll come in the dugout, we'll give a hug, whatever, but just friend who's not a baseball player is probably not gonna not gonna go in for the hug hug you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the bro hug, bro hug, the nice firm pat on the back yeah, do you do that amongst all baseball players on the team or? Yeah, I think it's pretty common, like you know, especially before, before a game or practice when you're seeing the guy, you give a nice hug. Yeah, we're teammates, we're brothers. Yeah, say hello in more of a way than a formal handshake I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:sure if the Austrians do quite exactly the same, especially thinking of sports athletes, unless it's, you know, if it's an American sport, they might have taken over that tradition even from the American team spirit, but the kissy-kissy is always awkward to remember, like which side of the face is the first side on the kissy-kissy? If you do that wrong, you start kissing each other's nose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you go in opposite, then yeah it's no longer just a friendly greeting amongst friends.
Speaker 2:It's a very intimate greeting I looked this up before and I found some numbers. So most of the people who are doing the kissy, kissy greeting are 30 to 49 year olds 58. So firmly in our generation or we are firmly in that generation but there are 16 percent, that a number% that even think it's awkward or it's unnecessary or it's too much.
Speaker 1:So 16% of people in Austria disapprove of these kind of greetings and, to be fair, most of the time you know we say kissy, kissy, but it's really cheeky, cheeky.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's really cheek to cheek. Most greetings right. The lips don't really. Yeah, lips aren't contacting cheek or anything.
Speaker 2:And in German it's called Bussi, bussi. Yeah, so Bussi, bussi, bussi, bussi. I don't know if they have this term in English, but there's something we call Bussi, bussi, gesellschaft, which Gesellschaft means society. We don't have that in English.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't have Gesellschaft we should take up some good German words Kissy-kissy society.
Speaker 2:They mean a certain group of people that are all you know. Maybe are a little bit more arrogant and more hard to describe.
Speaker 1:Upper crust, yeah, upper crust. Or trying to act fancier.
Speaker 2:Or even trying to act fancier than they are.
Speaker 1:Perhaps Some people feel that's not really you think that's why, like 40, 50 years ago, like it was just like this resurgence of this kind of people wanting to have a high society indicator that like, oh, we agree, people with a kissy kissy because we're fancy.
Speaker 2:I think in a way, you know this would go for all cultures, all countries. If you are doing something that you say you you've brought from a different culture, yeah, that makes you look really, really sophisticated or perhaps even exotic. Yeah, and I think that you know the French people, for example. I think they've been doing it way longer than the Austrians or Germans have. So you know, coming into a meeting or just meeting some friends, and suddenly you're all, you're so educated, sophisticated and you do the things that the French people do. You may appear much more bigger or more special than you actually are. So I think that might have had something to do with it, to do something that no one else has been doing, and therefore you kind of set yourself apart and you look a little bit better. So that might have had a role in it. But I don't really know much about these things.
Speaker 1:We have to find somebody amongst that generation that helped invent it. We have to find a kissologist yeah, if some like that, a kissy kissy expert, kissy kissy expert.
Speaker 2:So if any of you out there know a kissy kissy expert on greetings, only on greetings, just to be, just to be clear, have them call in phone lines are open, man, yeah, but the one thing that we have to acknowledge is that kissy kissy versus handshakes, when it comes to personal hygiene, the kissy kissy wins. There are less bacteria being transferred. Sure, yeah, your hands are probably dirtier than your cheek because you, you touch more with your hands than what you touch with your cheeks, so your, your cheeks, have less. Pretty presumptuous of you.
Speaker 1:but yeah, you don't know what I do with my cheeks. Yeah, you're probably right.
Speaker 2:You're probably right now that I think about it. I mean, do you rub your face on the walls and everywhere you go, you know? The fancy strikes you, I guess. Yeah, that's what I do to appear very fancy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we could start a new thing. Yes, that's great. Turn the pages of my book with my cheek. Too bad, this isn't a video podcast. It's pretty much funny right now.
Speaker 2:Imagine cooking with your face.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hot pad holders for the face, just a big mask? Great, I do know that there is a. Obviously there are. There are more formal ways and, and you know, less formal ways to greet somebody, just in general, like the service was probably going to be something that's less formal. I get kind of so used to saying that that like I started even saying it in the grocery store, which is probably not necessarily the most appropriate place to greet the cashier or whatever with a service. Are there other ways or words that we should be using in more formal versus?
Speaker 1:you know if we're greeting a stranger for the first time, as opposed to a friend.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a big topic, since you just opened up another big box in the German language. Here we go. If you've never taken any German lessons so far, you might not be aware of this, but most people are aware, once they have their even first couple of German lessons, that there are two ways of saying you in German. Actually, there are three ways. Yes, we do Do you, so the you. There's an informal you and there's a plural you and there's a formal you, and so the do is the, the informal, and the z is the formal. So there are certain situations with certain people that you would pick one or the other but this is probably more like in the conversation just after the initial greeting right yes, however, some greetings would only work in the formal way and some only in the informal way.
Speaker 2:so if, like you, just after the initial greeting right. Yes, however, some greetings would only work in the formal way and some only in the informal way. So if, like you just said, the Servus is very informal, yeah, you imply the do with the Servus. The Servus implies the do yeah. The Grüß Gott implies the Sie, and the Guten Tag also. So if you want to be on the safe side, go with the Guten Tag and Grüß Gott to not cause any awkward situations it's always good to err on the side of formality often it's.
Speaker 2:It's the better choice if you're insecure about the social situation there. Yeah, so I'd say this is one thing if you say hello, just a regular hello, I think in english it would be okay to say hello mr so and so and hello mrs. Yeah, in german, if you say hello, that already makes it a little bit awkward yeah, you've kind of imbalanced the formal and informal that.
Speaker 2:That's what I would say Watch out for those. And if you are studying greetings, if you're memorizing vocabulary, maybe also memorize along with it when to use it. Situations you would use them in Children, for example, amongst each other, they would use all this hallo and servus, but if two adults meet, or even if a child is supposed to address an adult, if they're a stranger or a position of authority, then you would use the z it always.
Speaker 1:What about like, oh okay, talking um. What about going the other way, like for like an elderly person greeting a younger person? Is that still a formal situation? Are they going informal to prove their authority authority?
Speaker 2:they would most likely use the do with talking to children. Yeah, and if they use the z, it would also carry a special sense of awkwardness. Well, you could use and that goes both ways. You can use those formal, informal words and greetings in a sarcastic way and in a funny way, yeah. So if you and your friends hang out and you're just super informal and another friend comes in and says, yeah, it's just, you know, it's just over the top, it's overly formal and doesn't really mean that. So if an adult addresses a child with Z or the formal one, it might also carry either some irony or sarcasm with it.
Speaker 1:But would a teacher walk into a classroom and say salve to their students?
Speaker 2:Only the cool teachers, might Only the cool teachers yeah. So meaning I don't do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you say guten hallo to them, guten hallo, yeah, teaching all the wrong things.
Speaker 2:Great chaos, great chaos. No, teacher-student relationship is a very specific one, a very interesting one also. That has changed over the years. For example, in elementary school they used to call the teacher for example, I called my teacher Frau Lehrerin, which literally translates as Mrs Teacher, mrs Teacher, yeah, you would rarely call them by the last name. In the States, you probably say Mrs.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's automatic. Mrs Smith, mrs Miller, when it comes to the secondary level education, you would usually address them with, first of all you would say Mr and Mrs Professor. So you have Professor, frau, professor. That often is enough, and maybe they'll add their last name and it would be a Z situation. The teacher, however, however, would say do to the students. For most of the time with elementary students, often they, they cannot recognize the nuances of okay. When do I say do? See? So even kids, even native speakers, have take a long time learning the ways of dealing with this properly. An elementary teacher might tolerate kids says do to her, and so sometimes they would now call their mrs teacher, but now with with the first instead, not the last name. So it would be Mrs Teacher, hannah, or Mrs Teacher, any first name.
Speaker 2:What happened to me back in the day?
Speaker 2:I had a teacher who was really old, put it this way and old-fashioned and a very proper teacher.
Speaker 2:He was very competent with what he was doing, but he was really one of the last of his kind. I might say I don't think it's happening anymore these days, but back when I was a student, when we changed from middle school to high school, he told us okay, now you're becoming adults here, you're in high school, so therefore from now on I'm going to address you in a formal way. So he used to address us with do before, and then he switched to the Z, which is unusual, because usually when you switch, you only switch the other way around. You start formal, sure, and then you go informal, yeah, so you go from z to do, but he, in a way, he kind of wanted to express his respect for us as students, yeah, and it is taking us seriously, although he kind of also created more distance in a social way. Right, that was a little bit awkward, but just he did it with everyone, like every everybody, all the students who were kind of advancing in the years.
Speaker 1:It's wild the amount of like social nuance that's built into language, that it goes far beyond communication but it's also establishing like social hierarchy and how you interact with somebody, just with the word choices.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you can get into some trouble without even knowing, since if a student, for example, addresses the teacher the wrong way, that might have some disciplinary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it might be on the bad list for the. Right, you might go to the principal For the rest of the year, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just for saying it. And that's especially hard if you're just a language learner. Yeah, I mean often, especially in the school setting, teachers would acknowledge, okay, he or she is still learning the language and they would not really take it seriously. But imagine you are in a situation where you get in touch with the police and you start addressing the police officer with a do yeah. That would be inappropriate as well culturally. That might be a very complicated situation.
Speaker 2:However, when we talk about the police, the police would sometimes, when they talk to people who are not from around, if they're immigrants, they would often even themselves call the other person by do, by the informal way, but not even to discriminate or to put them in a bad light or bad position. But they know that most immigrants, they only can handle the do version. And if they address them with z, which can also mean she, for example, the word z can also mean she they might like the, the language learner, the immigrant, might not even they think they're talking about she. To talk about her, they're not talking about you, and they might misunderstand yeah, yeah. So even in that situation they might. So there's so many different scenarios you can think of.
Speaker 1:It can go all wrong, or it can actually work out for the better when you switch back and forth I've seen that happen in times when when native german speakers are kind of self-translating into english and they'll refer to a male in the story as she, just because that's like what's going on in the head, right like that. The there's that direct translation to things and obviously if you're not as comfortable in the other language, then you end up being even more offensive while you are trying to be formal and polite, right, right.
Speaker 2:Those pronouns are really tricky because the word sie can mean three things. It's the formal you, it can be she, but it also means they, yeah, with all the genders in the German language as well. That can be confusing no matter if you're learning English, or if you're learning German but you want to translate, right, you can pretty quickly get yourself into trouble, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know interesting the school dynamic of it. Having worked at the international school, just the different backgrounds of kids that are coming in and how they're. You know maybe what their home culture teaches them how to interact with instructors, teaches them how to interact with instructors you get this wide range of.
Speaker 1:You know the the overly polite sir, on everything, yeah, or the mister, or you know people would, they would, yeah, just run this whole. So I could see that there were some teachers that would get offended at times. I mean sometimes, I mean being called sir they got offended because you get offended by that, because it's like whoa, this is way too formal for what I'm comfortable with in a, in a small classroom setting, and so it's just it's.
Speaker 2:It's such a minefield, yeah how dare you treat me with respect? Yeah, you can try again, yeah, um which is fun. There's so many ways we can offend people if you're not good enough offending people on purpose purpose, then you go to a different country you can start offending people on accident.
Speaker 1:Well, you were telling me about a letter. You know, as we talk, even of how people can use the formalities in a more ironic or offensive tone on purpose yes, yes, and here's now a special course.
Speaker 2:This is now a special treat for everyone listening to this episode here. All right, you're going to learn something you probably wouldn't learn in a language course learning German. The way that this formal-informal structure is working out for a lot of people is that the formal, the Z, it creates some distance and it makes you feel. And it makes you feel, or it makes you look, very create some superiority, superiority in a way. So what happens before I get into that letter, for example, what might happen in other moments when you are talking to someone in an informal way, talking to do with each other, and there might be some conflict? What has happened before in history a couple times. It doesn't happen very often, but people would sometimes say I withdraw my, do I?
Speaker 1:take it. I take it back. Formally withdraw. You have to formally withdraw it.
Speaker 2:And now we are just uh addressing each other by last name only and with the z the bureaucracy of this part of the world is there?
Speaker 1:is there a stamp you have to get for that, or is it just a verbal withdrawal?
Speaker 2:okay, all right on the other hand, we haven't. We should maybe also talk about, uh, about this. Like the good part is, sometimes, when two people meet on a formal level, like we just said before, they meet and they talk z to each other by last name, sometimes they feel okay, we're getting closer, we could be friends, yeah. So they say it's usually the the older one initiates that, not the younger one. The one, the older one with a higher superiority, any kind of status, would say okay, let's say do. And often in Austria it also connects with a drink. Of course. You toast each other, you have a glass, and then you say, hey, ich bin der Herbert, my name is Herbert.
Speaker 1:That's when you know, once you get the first name.
Speaker 2:So I'm not Herbert the first name, so I'm not Herbert Huber anymore. I'm not Mr Huber to you, but I'm actually Herbert now. So I say hey, I'm Herbert, and he says I'm Andreas and from there they talk to each other standard to have you know, to know when you're going to be friends yeah, so if someone comes up to you and clicks the glass of you and says, hey, I've been, uh, I've been peter, something like, okay, I knew that before, so why are you telling me this?
Speaker 2:yeah, thanks yeah, I know you're actually telling you, hey, we're good, but first now we're friends.
Speaker 1:Huh, we're friends now. Yeah, I thought we were friends the whole time.
Speaker 2:That's tough, that's misleading yeah, you can't be his friend with an austrian, as as that. That's very true, that's very true. And then the other hand, if those two friends start fighting or have some conflict, the one might say to the other okay, I withdraw the do, and so I will call you Z, we're no longer friends. We're no longer friends. I mean, they might still be working with each other, or dealing with each other.
Speaker 1:We're only colleagues now.
Speaker 2:Just in a distant relationship, so you can express so much with talking Z. So, as I was saying, you can create some distance just by using these pronouns, which is fascinating. And the one thing I was going to refer to there's this letter that was written a couple of years ago. When was it? It was in the 20s. It's not so long ago. There was a mayor 2020, yeah, I mean, it feels like ages ago. It does feel like ages ago. Wow, there is this mayor in this small town somewhere in Austria and there was this other from the opposing party, another guy who was kind of a veteran, so he was even the older generation. So there's the mayor writing the older guy and the email, which is funny. To begin with, the subject line is your email, but in English you don't see the difference, but in German, you see the difference if it's your or your. So the formal your or your.
Speaker 2:So it actually says dein Mail, which is the informal. So your email it's like a do-based email. But then the email comes from the mayor and it starts off with Herr geehrter Herr Ingenieur Schneider. So that's sorry, sehr geehrter Herr, sorry, sergei Erd, the engineer Schneider. So, sergei Erd means that's how you start a letter. It really means literally, dear, highly honored Mr So-and-so. So it's a very formal letter. And then the first question is in the letter since when are we saying do to each other? This is the first question.
Speaker 1:And then he says so the other guy had sent an email, obviously to the mayor.
Speaker 2:To the mayor that said buy an email, obviously to the mayor, to the mayor that's using, using yeah and what do? Yeah. And then something with it was referring to some other email that has has been sent before, but obviously it was a do so the younger, the younger mayor the younger mayor but the older other politician. The older politician had sent the younger mayor a do email oh, okay, okay, which.
Speaker 2:So in most settings that would be permission to be informed and and even especially, like I said before, with the older guy having the rights to even say it's actually an honor if an older person tells you, let's call me do-it-yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would have been culturally known that this was an offer.
Speaker 2:But these two people obviously had a fight. The ironic thing, they had a fight over the local morgue for some reason. And so the mayor is writing back and saying okay, from now on either call me by my last name or you call me Mr Mayor, but nothing else is permitted. And the funniest thing in it all is he's really trying to make the other person, the other politician, look really bad. He's basically saying how bad he was as a politician back when he still had a higher position or something.
Speaker 2:But in the end he says I want to state one thing, one fact. It says here you were, it's like the former. You, you are and you will always be a swine, a pig, wow. And then he signs his office letter with the german word is hochachtungsvoll, which is a very nice word. Instead of sincerely in german you actually state with highest regards I mean, maybe you also say that in english sometimes like with the highest regards. Then mayor so and so is signing off. So the funny thing is he's destroying this other guy. He's just using really foul language.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but in a formal way but all the time he's keeping it very, very formal and very proper. Yeah, so you don't know what to do with that, but that's how you can have fights in in german, yeah, with, at the same time, being so distant and so so proper while saying the ugliest things to each other do you think it's?
Speaker 2:it's the, it's the distance that made him feel more comfortable writing in such a such a nasty way in a way, I think, uh, it's a similar effect that you see online, maybe on, you know, on social media and any comment sections, when people feel they're farther away from whatever is commented yeah they tend to be a little more nasty than in real life they don't be true.
Speaker 2:so it is you really hold back more in a way, maybe when you feel closer and if you feel more distant, you feel like you have the right, or you have at least the option, to say things you probably wouldn't say, because he's saying in his email I mean, I skipped that.
Speaker 1:He's saying, with all due respect, sir you are a beep hole, yeah, so with all due respect, sir, you are a whole yeah. So, with all due respect, you are the worst yeah, well, when you, when you put in, with all due respect, before you say something mean that's, that's even in english, uh yeah term where you say, where you say okay, there's nothing good coming after that yeah, no, nothing good coming out of.
Speaker 2:With all due respect, yes, but like in german it, the formality is just so much more evident.
Speaker 1:Yeah it becomes very, becomes very obvious when it's in the written form as well. Right, you see exactly how he's establishing the social distance.
Speaker 2:And the problem is, of course the mayor didn't think this through, because the politician forwarded an email to the local newspaper. It was on the news, not just in the local local news, but I think it went all through Austria. It's a big scandal. And then he got into trouble and I think he had to apologize publicly. And I don't know what his two men are at it's a formal apology but I mean, he wrote things like he said our morgue is working really well, don't worry, you'll soon figure out, you'll soon experience it yourself how good our freezer is, and you know these things like for corpses politics man, yeah, nasty and every I have no idea if this guy was even uh sober when he wrote this.
Speaker 2:This might be another thing.
Speaker 1:Well, there's some unknowns to this game wow, so hopefully that clarified some things for you listener of how to greet people on the streets and how to greet your friends, maybe how to not greet people as well how to pull people down in a very formal way, don't do that.
Speaker 2:Don't do that, be nice. You have to have a high level of language abilities to to be able to pull it off. Yeah, no kidding. But for now, formally or informally, correctly or incorrectly, I think there's only one thing for us left to say, which is Guten, bye-bye, guten.
Speaker 1:Bye-Bye then.
